Curse

Gill Halendt · Jan 13, 2010, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Well, there are several types of players who have an intrest in the fact that (solo) farming gets nerfed:

1) The pug players, who will think that the farmers will team up with them. That's never gonna happen imo.

I don't pug. I play with my (real life) friends and H/H when I need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

2) The players who don't farm. Some of them want a nerf out of envie.

I don't farm that much. Mostly easy stuff like VwK farm in a couple of very easy farming spots. Not much to envy, since I could get anything I wanted with a little effort, which is the actual thrill in getting anything to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

3) The players who geniunely strive for a more 'balanced' environment in PvE, which can't be done without a massive overhaul of PvE anyway.

I do. And I also agree that some basic mechanics simply don't work and favor those imbalances. Yet that's no reason to me for absurd stuff like permaSF to exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

4) The powertraders, the scum of GW I might add, as they get their wealth on the back of others, while a farmer actually works for his wealth. The less wealth/rare skins that are generated, the more valuable and rare their stock becomes.

I'm no powertrader. I don't even know the basic principles of powertrading. Not that I care, actually. I play for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

5) Some of the players who already have gwamm and full HoM for obvious reasons.

My warrior is GWAMM and has a (almost, actually) full HoM. That was achieved with that little farming mentioned above. I don't have time to spend to play solo (and to farm), since I really enjoy playing with my friends and, because of my job, I can play a couple of hours in the evening at best. It took 4 years to get GWAMM. I'm happy with it. As I said, the chase is better than the catch to me.

So, I'm in none of the above categories. How's that I care about absurd abuses and degenerated solo farming anyway?

Fay Vert · Jan 13, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

3) The players who geniunely strive for a more 'balanced' environment in PvE, which can't be done without a massive overhaul of PvE anyway.

Perfect balance isn't achievable, but more balanced certainly is. Broken Form is truely broken and you know it.

What would your reaction be to the following (PVE of course) skill?

Mega Farm (elite): All foes in the zone are killed and drop double. All drops shadow step to your location.

Would you argue that it is fine because:
a) it doesn't affect anyone else
b) it's only PvE
c) balance isn't possible anyway
d) if you don't like it don't use it
e) you will quit the game if they nerf it
f) people who don't like it are selfish/gwamm/farmers w/e
g) if they nerf it, obby flesh would just replace it
h) all of the above

Because this is exactly the pro-broken form argument. Go figure!

reaper with no name · Jan 13, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saph

Reading through the first 20 or so pages of this thread, I've noticed one reoccurring theory. Farming makes you evil/stupid/etc. Why? I'd rather farm for my q9 eaglecrest axe than pay out the ass for it, so that makes me stupid?

I truly don't understand the mass anti-farm movement that's going on.

Is it the way a majority of people farm (SF, 600/smite), or is it farming in general?

Contrary to popular belief, SF and 600/Smite are not farming builds. Farming builds are fundamentally limited in scope to a couple of areas. Take them out of those areas, and they fail. A good example of a farming build is 55. It works in certain areas because the monsters in them do not possess the degen/life steal/enchantment stripping that shuts it down. But try to use a 55 in general PvE and it will fail.

SF and 600/Smite don't do that. They can steamroll over the vast majority of PvE when used correctly. For that reason, these builds can be used to farm and whatnot. But they are not "farming" builds. They are something beyond that.

There are two distinct camps in opposition to SF.

One hates it for the reasons I described above (with no actual hatred of farming itself; you won't hear these guys griping about 55, for example).

Then there's the other one which either does hate farming, or hates the farming of ectos. The reason for the latter is because it inflates the economy. This vastly increases the gap in wealth between those who farm and those who do not farm, while simultaneously decreasing the value of all the items in the game. This reduces the wealth people get from selling the rare items they find through both farming and standard play. Basically, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Point is, these are two very different groups and it's important not to get them confused.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, there's one other group who wants SF nerfed: people with tons of ectos who are hoping a SF nerf will drive prices into the stratosphere and inflate their wealth.

Gregslot · Jan 13, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

So when is the update coming after all? This week?

jazilla · Jan 13, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

If you know that the holiday break was coming Regina, why post just before it that a skill balance was coming? Was it to get people excited for the costumes you were releasing? You guys had to have known you weren't going to release the update at all. It's really frustrating to say the least. I would rather have an honest announcement as to what's going on rather than some company line of garbage that is merely a canned response to appease the masses. I am seriously put off by this and for good reason.

Karate Jesus · Jan 13, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

So when is the update coming after all? This week?

Regina hasn't said. The best we can probably hope for is Mid-February.

I think Jette over at GWW (who is on the Test Krewe) helped sum up some of the issues that the TK and the GWLT are having:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jette

Allow me to crush all hope for you: the long wait is due to the atrocious forum software and complete lack of organization. Nothing useful is being done.

I've heard similar complaints. A lot of my friends that are on the TK have told me it's an unorganized mess with a terrible forum and no real work is being done. I guess we shouldn't be surprised with that, considering that the TK seemed to have been unprepared (with the sign-up site going down, lack of available information about the TK at the time, etc.) and pulled out of someone's arse during an Anet staff meeting

Gill Halendt · Jan 13, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

A lot of my friends that are on the TK have told me it's an unorganized mess with a terrible forum and no real work is being done.

Not that we've been given a different impression so far. I don't see how a group working with no time schedule nor priorities can call itself "organized".

Morphy · Jan 13, 2010, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Perfect balance isn't achievable, but more balanced certainly is. Broken Form is truely broken and you know it.

What would your reaction be to the following (PVE of course) skill?

Mega Farm (elite): All foes in the zone are killed and drop double. All drops shadow step to your location.

Would you argue that it is fine because:
a) it doesn't affect anyone else
b) it's only PvE
c) balance isn't possible anyway
d) if you don't like it don't use it
e) you will quit the game if they nerf it
f) people who don't like it are selfish/gwamm/farmers w/e
g) if they nerf it, obby flesh would just replace it
h) all of the above

Because this is exactly the pro-broken form argument. Go figure!

I would be ok with those reasons, actually. Then again, I hate PvE. Meh, PvE will always be broken.

BuD · Jan 13, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Regina hasn't said. The best we can probably hope for is Mid-February.

But wouldnt mid February be only a couple weeks before the MAT?

If we are to believe what Regina said about releasing skill updates/balances it should come the first Thursday of February. If its any later it will clash with the MAT...

Gun Pierson · Jan 13, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Perfect balance isn't achievable, but more balanced certainly is. Broken Form is truely broken and you know it.

What would your reaction be to the following (PVE of course) skill?

Mega Farm (elite): All foes in the zone are killed and drop double. All drops shadow step to your location.

Would you argue that it is fine because:
a) it doesn't affect anyone else
b) it's only PvE
c) balance isn't possible anyway
d) if you don't like it don't use it
e) you will quit the game if they nerf it
f) people who don't like it are selfish/gwamm/farmers w/e
g) if they nerf it, obby flesh would just replace it
h) all of the above

Because this is exactly the pro-broken form argument. Go figure!

I would argue that your example skill is not fine because it takes away the fun of the hunt when farming, while SF and 600/smite do not. You still have to go in there and keep the spells up, as easy as it seems and may be to experienced players.

Both SF and 600/smite are broken in the sense that it gives you 'invulnerabilty', which wasn't a problem last years until the SC popped up. Ofcourse the anti SF crowd existed back then too, but Anet tried to find the sweet spot between the purists on one side and the farmers on the other side. Because guess what, you're not the only type of player playing this game, go figure!

Fay Vert · Jan 13, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

FYI. I am very pro solo/farm as a form of play. The loot nerf was the worst thing they ever did to this game. But Broken Form just needs to die, that was such a dreadful failure, far far worse than Ursan ever was.

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 13, 2010, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I would argue that your example skill is not fine because it takes away the fun of the hunt when farming, while SF and 600/smite do not. You still have to go in there and keep the spells up, as easy as it seems and may be to experienced players.

Both SF and 600/smite are broken in the sense that it gives you 'invulnerabilty', which wasn't a problem last years until the SC popped up. Ofcourse the anti SF crowd existed back then too, but Anet tried to find the sweet spot between the purists on one side and the farmers on the other side. Because guess what, you're not the only type of player playing this game, go figure!

I've never used 600/smite, but let me get one thing straight... Mashing 1,2, and then 3 on recharge is not and will never take 'skill' as you seem to be hinting at. It would be something different if a good number of monsters had the ability to remove SF or do damage through it, but they don't. You are invulnerable to anything, and the rare packet of damage that gets through is easy to self heal. You saying that SF is fine because it takes an experienced player to mash buttons on recharge is laughable.

SF was totally fine as a farming skill BEFORE it was made maintainable as well, and people seem to forget this. It was mainly used as a boss killer farm, and it was a very good one at that. Very fragile, you had to get in there, do the right thing, get any drops, and get out.

Alesa · Jan 13, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Well that's intriguing. I'd like to point out the difference in communication style below between a fumbling ArenaNet and the Diablo2 CM covering very similar announcements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

So I know some of you are waiting anxiously for the next skill balance. Let me just take a few moments to talk about the challenges we're facing with this particular skill balance. We are involving the Test Krewe in this balance. They've really been digging deep into skill discussions, and the involvement of the Test Krewe has added more cycles to the skill balance process. This is to be expected. When you invite a large group of people into the process and solicit and discuss their feedback, it will take more time. Secondly, skill balance (like many aspects of game design) is an iterative process, and one where both the Test Krewe and the Live Team are learning, streamlining, and improving on, in terms of how best to deliver and take in feedback. The winter holiday break hit, and there was some downtime for that. Finally, you all know that we do not change skills before the MAT. The Live Team and Test Krewe are working earnestly on this skill balance, and the Team knows that you've been waiting for it.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=845

There are approximately 4 excuses thrown at us in that one short paragraph that I underlined. There seems to be no accountability or even solid reason for the delay. But perhaps these are the excuses they threw at their superiors as well.

I would like to contrast this with the Diablo2 CM's announcement of a long awaited patch. The content and games are different but that's not really what we are addressing here, rather the method of communicating with the players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bashiok

The legacy team met late last week to decide how to proceed on the 1.13 patch and the decision was made to go back into development to incorporate a few additional changes. While this patch has already seen its fair share of delays we still want to ensure we’re releasing a patch that hits some key community issues. I do want to stress though that while we did look at feedback and responses we’re obviously not going to be able to include everything requested. Our hope is to hit at least a decent portion of what we saw people discussing and correct some of the more severe issues while keeping additional development time as brief as possible.

We don’t have a current estimate for release, and because work is only just beginning on these new changes we won’t be announcing their details. We’ll be keeping everyone updated as to the progress of the patch though, and we hope to see this update on the PTR as soon as possible and then off quickly to a release and ladder reset.
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...46175&sid=3000

There are no excuses. They took responsibility for the delay, acknowledged and firmly stood by their decision. They also directly addressed the community and made solid statements that they heard their concerns. While flaws could probably be brought up with both, I think it's a glaring fact that our CM's seem to be seriously lacking in both poise and confidence.

I don't mean to be harsh but the significant difference in the tone between the two leaves me to wonder. Neither of the two statements was probably satisfactory to either community; yet I feel like I have more information about the mindset of the development team and the progress of Diablo2's update than I do of Guild Wars. Blizzard gave the impression of decisions being made, of action occurring. ArenaNet left the impression that they are still stumbling around in the dark.

Krill · Jan 13, 2010, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

A lot of my friends that are on the TK have told me it's an unorganized mess with a terrible forum and no real work is being done.

More massive Anet incompetence? I'm shocked!

Gun Pierson · Jan 13, 2010, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I've never used 600/smite, but let me get one thing straight... Mashing 1,2, and then 3 on recharge is not and will never take 'skill' as you seem to be hinting at.

No I was not hinting that, but now that we're onto that subject...When I infuse in PvP, I mash buttons too. You're prolly gonna tell me now infusing takes no skill either, which may as well be true. If it's true it means I'm keeping players alive in PvP with a no brainer, no skill build that makes a real difference. If this mashing is allowed in PvP, the 'epitome' of balance and skill in GW, I'm sure it's ok for PvE also.

So when is a build considered skillful when you have only 8 spots on the bar? Btw, when I play 600 I'm using 6 out of 8 skills constantly. In Foundry 7 out of the 8.

Del · Jan 13, 2010, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I've never used 600/smite, but let me get one thing straight... Mashing 1,2, and then 3 on recharge is not and will never take 'skill' as you seem to be hinting at. It would be something different if a good number of monsters had the ability to remove SF or do damage through it, but they don't. You are invulnerable to anything, and the rare packet of damage that gets through is easy to self heal. You saying that SF is fine because it takes an experienced player to mash buttons on recharge is laughable.

SF was totally fine as a farming skill BEFORE it was made maintainable as well, and people seem to forget this. It was mainly used as a boss killer farm, and it was a very good one at that. Very fragile, you had to get in there, do the right thing, get any drops, and get out.

nothing in pve takes skill. nerf everything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

I would be ok with those reasons, actually. Then again, I hate PvE. Meh, PvE will always be broken.

This.
unless they fix enemy AI pve will always be a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

When I infuse in PvP, I mash buttons too. You're prolly gonna tell me now infusing takes no skill either, which may as well be true. If it's true it means I'm keeping players alive in PvP with a no brainer, no skill build that makes a real difference. If this mashing is allowed in PvP, the 'epitome' of balance and skill in GW, I'm sure it's ok for PvE also.

Fallacious argument. pressing glyph, paradox, sf in order takes no skill whatsoever, whereas catching a spike and keeping red bars up does. Personally, the fact that you'd go so far as to compare monking in pvp to maintaining sf (as if they're in any way similar) leads me to believe that you shouldn't be monking in pvp.

Gun Pierson · Jan 13, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

Fallacious argument. pressing glyph, paradox, sf in order takes no skill whatsoever, whereas catching a spike and keeping red bars up does. Personally, the fact that you'd go so far as to compare monking in pvp to maintaining sf (as if they're in any way similar) leads me to believe that you shouldn't be monking in pvp.

Oh...but I wasn't comparing, I'm just demonstrating that 'skill' to one player doesn't equal 'skill' to another. I've read discussions about infusing in the PvP forums and some disagree with you.

Del · Jan 13, 2010, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Oh...but I wasn't comparing, I'm just demonstrating that 'skill' to one player doesn't equal 'skill' to another. I've read discussions about infusing in the PvP forums and some disagree with you.

You were comparing.
Also, I care that some baddies think sf and infuse are on the same skill level?

Gun Pierson · Jan 13, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

You guys are totally missing the point which was about mashing buttons. In theory infusing is pressing 1 button, but ofcourse at the right time and with energy management and what not in mind. So no, it's not the same as SF you smartasses.

I just think the counter argument about SF and mashing buttons is pretty weak.

axe · Jan 13, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

This whole game is build wars anyways, PvP/PvE you just adjust your build to farm your environment. Mash buttons and profit, only difference in PvP is you cant control what your opponents choose as their build and skill will profit in that situation.